Safety in Design

Phil: [00:00:00] What if eliminating risk was as simple as rethinking the design process itself. Today, we're discussing safety in design, a proactive method that embeds hazard prevention into the earliest stages of project development. Although this approach isn't new, it's gaining fresh momentum, why? Because preventing hazards at the design stage doesn't just protect workers.

It also avoids the costly, often ineffective fixes needed when risks generally discovered later. So what does it actually look like in practice? How do you spot hidden risks before they become real s? And what steps can eh EHS leaders take right now to embed safety and design into their projects and culture?

Narrator: This is rethinking EHS where global goals meet local expertise to accelerate a resilient planet for all. We highlight practical solutions and bold strategies that drive change. Brought to you by Inogen Alliance.

Phil: I'm here with my co-host for this episode, the amazing, Elizabeth Arasmith. She's vice president at Ontario Group USA, [00:01:00] as well as global health and Safety Working group leader and leadership team member with Inogen Alliance.

It's so great to have you here, Elizabeth.

Alizabeth: I'm excited to be back with you, Phil. This is a lot of fun.

Phil: It sure is. Do you wanna introduce our additional guests?

Alizabeth: Yeah. So we brought in two more of the subject matter experts from the Indigen Alliance. We have ING Lu from ANU in China and Arun Schrody, um, from, uh, chola risk of, of India who are both many years experts in the field of safety and design, and have a lot of interesting stories to share.

Thank you Elizabeth. I think, you know, when we look at, listen, how Phyllis sort of set us up. Um, why do you think right now that safety and design is so important and why is it getting a new, um, elevation, um, in the discussion and the dialogue?

Arun: Thanks, Elizabeth. I think, uh, you know, you have actually come to the very first question, which is most important to set the stage for the discussion.[00:02:00]

Uh, but see, according, to me, safety and design is something, it's a kind of system that integrates all hazard reification and risk assessment studies like Phil said. Especially into the early stages of the process design. Now, when we talk about process design, uh, early stages of process design, we need to come back and understand the project lifecycle, uh, which starts ideally from a conceptual phase, and then moves to feed, which is called front and engineering design, and then moves to detail engineering, followed by procurement.

Construction, uh, pre-commissioning, commissioning, operations and maintenance and decommissioning. So if you talk about this entire project lifecycle now, it related to design. We only have the first three stages, which is nothing but conceptual feed and, uh, detail engineer. Now, uh, we, where exactly we need to integrate this.

SID that's always becomes a question for that. We need to understand what exactly the conceptual phase does. So concept phase is nothing, but it sets the, uh, [00:03:00] you know, stage for, uh, the foundation of the project development. And that's where, by the name says that's where the concepts are being developed.

And it focuses majorly on high level planning. Probably some amount of focus is given on understanding. You know, design options. When I say design options, uh, it, it is more on, uh, you know, the siding aspects and let's say if I have to construct a manufacturing plant or if I have to construct a data center now at which location I have maybe, probably two or three locations in my mind.

But which location is ultimately, uh, a safer, relatively safer at that point of time? So that's where the conceptual stage and the feed stage, it is nothing, but this is the stage. It is called front end engineering design. And this is a stage where your major design is being developed. And this is also a stage where you, the, the designers can be able to work, work out, uh.

Accurate cost as well as the project schedule. And when we talk about the third stage of the design design [00:04:00] phase, it is nothing but a detailed engineering phase. That's where you will have a less window of opportunity to work on the designs. No designers would be accepting to correct at the at the third stage of the project.

So to be precise, it's important to integrate SID in the second phase of the design. And it is also a second phase of the project lifecycle that is nothing but feed where 80% of the design is being built upon. I also agree to what Phil said, it is obviously a proactive approach, uh, because in later stages of the project lifecycle, we keep experiencing a lot of risks and hazards and, uh, we do not want such incidents to happen, and therefore I'm proactively, uh, integrating my hazard identification techniques, my risk assessment techniques.

Little free stage. So, uh, that would be my view.

Alizabeth: And Ming, do you feel like, you know, you have that same process to put safety in that second stage, um, and how it pays off through as a value to the [00:05:00] project?

Meng: Yes, I'd be very agree around about the, uh, uh, risks on the, uh, process set and also. Uh, I would like to arise up a lot.

Issue is like, 'cause we, we all know that, uh, safety is come from design. Uh, safety is start with quality in the, uh, a project. Uh, development is not about, uh, completion of the construction, but also the future operation. So when we're considering the, uh, process, but. Uh, we're talking about safety. Uh, normally we, we find, uh, unsafety, uh, uh, or incident caused by, uh, either the unsafe, uh, condition or, uh, unsafe behaviors, uh, unsafe, uh, condition are normally set by, uh, physical setup and, uh, [00:06:00] uh, unsafe behavior normally caused by human.

To PO system, which are both caused by PO design in the very early beginning stage. So, um, besides the process safety, we also should considering, uh, and involve as early as possible of those end users to better design the, as Aaron said, uh, workflow pattern and the proper layout layout. Which will save us lots of, uh, cost and help us on the efficiency in the future operation.

So, uh, it's not only about, uh, safety, it's also about cost and schedule and the efficiency.

Alizabeth: Yes. Yeah. Phil, before I send it back to you, I think some of the terms that we've used previously, or I think we hear a lot of clients using [00:07:00] is human and organizational performance. Um, HOP is a lot, is a colloquialism for that, but the idea that humans are going to continue to make mistakes.

But if we can engineer out those risks, um, that we know to be present because of the type of the operation or the type of the building it is, or in the renovation, um, we have seen a better chance to reduce those number of incidents being said. And so Hop may something that some of the listeners are more familiar.

Um, but I think, you know, it's again, um, trying to get at that hierarchy of, of, of controls and the strongest controls, if we can engineer it out of the building, that's a first great start, but it's not easy.

Phil: I'm glad that you shared that, Elizabeth, because it's really helpful to take a step back and talk about where our listeners might be.

You know, I always thought about it something even more simple because Irun talked about the three stages of design process. Meg talked about how safety starts with [00:08:00] quality and how situations are caused by unsafe conditions or unsafe behaviors. But I was thinking, okay, who is the designer and what role do they play?

So I'll go with each of you. And in the same order, can you share a brief story or a case study from your region that demonstrated a time in which safety in design principles avoided major issues or incidents, including injuries, costs, or expensive fixes.

Arun: Yes, absolutely. I belong to India and, uh, we execute a number of projects, especially our, uh, uh, 30 to 40% of the projects would are relating to safety and design.

And uh, I would say, uh, we have worked across various sectors. Uh, uh, starting from data center, which is considered to be a relatively, uh, simplified process when compared to a large, complex, uh, chemical or a process plant. So, uh, we have experienced safety and design projects in, uh, in all types of hazard industries.

Now, uh, we, we have recently we have [00:09:00] implemented safety and design for a data center where the hazard identification has been done as a very first step. And a risk assessment has been done as a, a second and foremost step. This hazard identification is a technique which is adopted in safety and design for this data center project where all sort of hazards we talking from electrical like, uh, man said it is not just process safety, but then you have to understand and consider all the areas of hazards.

From starting from fire, whether your fire protection systems are designed adequate and we, your electrical systems, how reliable are they? And then your building safety data center is a, is a huge, uh, you know, building asset. And, uh, we also talk, we also, uh, reviewed, uh, some aspects of design into occupational health and hygiene.

And this is all about the hazard identification, uh, technique, which has been adopted as part of safety and design for this data center. Now, uh, once you do a hazard identification, you will be able to understand the risks involved and what severe that [00:10:00] could lead to. So we also have done, uh, because this particular, uh, uh, you know, vicinity also handles some flavor belts as well as the combustibles.

We have done a risk assessment study and understood whether your critical buildings like control room or uh, you know, uh, admin building where personal are being occupied all the time, uh, you know, in all the shifts, whether they are being safe. Or whether the building that, uh, that that has been constructed, whether it can withstand your fire and explosion loads.

So this is one sort of project where we had, uh, uh, you know, uh, great experience to work directly with the end client. Now there's also one more project where, uh, it's a slightly complex project where, uh, the contractors are involved. Now, the, the comp, the complexity of execution also increases. You invite more stakeholders because you will have lot of alignment issues.

You also will have cost over and time over and challenges, uh, which we will be talking upon, I believe in the subsequent questions. But, uh, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, I think [00:11:00] probably 70% of sectors is what we have covered in India. And out of which, uh, all out of which all the projects, we work at least 25 to 30%, especially into integrating safety and design.

Phil: So Arun, you gave a really good description of the what, and I really appreciate that. It made me think of a project that we worked on recently where there are these folks who were going out to oil wells and they're capturing flare gas from the oil wells. So instead of at releasing it to the atmosphere, they were burning it for power, right?

And there are all sorts of challenges that could be, you know, the gas could explode, people could get electrocuted, the whole thing could get caught on fire. There are all these different risks, right? So meng. Arun did a really good job of talking about the what, can you just tell us a story about the, how this works, like how the actual mitigation with clients works and how people see the benefit of the work that you're doing?

Because,

Meng: um, Aaron already did a, told a very, uh, bold of the risks. So I, [00:12:00] I'm trying to give a, like very specific, um, example and, uh, to, uh, to answer, uh, Phil's question, how we. Get the, uh, benefit out of that? Recently? Yes. It's actually last year we did a project for, it's actually an ongoing project. It's a, a huge project in North China, uh, coal chemical project.

The owner invest over billions of, uh, uh, your stole onions project. It's a very big one. We. Um, the safety team, um, involved this project at a very early stage, like, um, let's say feasibility study stage. Not even, it's, it's even before the design actually, we, um, going to the, um. The team, we noticed some of the improvement opportunities we can find from our perspective of our safety [00:13:00] team.

I give example of that. It, we noticed that they divide this project into two phases, and for the first phases they, they designed a huge, um, conveyor belt to translate to the code, to the, uh. Operation, uh, area. And, uh, they're trying to build a very large one and to saving, they think that's, uh, a saving on the, on the investment.

But, uh, after the e evaluation and, uh, our team come up, uh, uh, different, uh, uh, opinion, like, um, uh, if you, uh, that's from two side, from safety side, the huge one will. Occupied a large area of that, uh, function in Zoom. Uh, when we come to the second phase of the development, we'll have very difficult con condition to [00:14:00] set up all the staff as doing the construction activities.

So we need to think about the future. Uh, we, we need to take a little bit of further aside to, to see this problem and it. Once you add the, uh, risks and the construction activities, it will, it will, uh, impact your schedule and your cost as well, of course. And secondly, it's not only about safety, it's also about the, uh, future operation.

Because if you have only one big, uh, belt, only if is fees goes and anything goes wrong in the future, and you trying to transport all the code from like four warehouse to the system. It when it goes wrong, the whole, uh, plan will shut down because of that. So we, we made them the owner to rethink about that and change the design from one vehicle, uh, belt to two [00:15:00] sets.

So it, it give us more space for the future construction activity, but also help them to better maintain and wronging their future operation for that. So you see. The point is when safety team, uh, from the positive of safety, but also we find opportunities for efficiencies and the costs, it just, the, uh, a, a small example of that, but I think it's a better fit field program.

Okay, that's fine.

Phil: Example. It's a great example. And before I hand it back to Elizabeth, I have a question, actually, I'll ask Arun and then, and Elizabeth probably could comment on this too. Um, what are your tips for convincing business leaders that the preventive actions you discussed? Are better than corrective actions.

A lot of times people, we say an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure, but people don't eat their vitamins and eat their broccoli. [00:16:00] Right? So do you use ROI or safety in design efforts, or you use some other measures to prove the benefits of this approach?

Arun: I think I agree to what you said.

The prevention is better than Cure is something, uh, quite, uh, adopted as a statement. But, uh, we, we find very hard to convince the business leaders. And Phil actually we try to work with, uh, two categories of the projects. Uh, one, we, uh, we directly work with end client, uh, uh. Which is, uh, obviously a relatively, uh, uh, you know, less complex as well as, uh, uh, you know, it involves good smoothness execution in terms of execution.

But at the same time, we also work with, uh, the end clients where, uh, these clients would award. The projects to, uh, design contractors who in turn works with, uh, safety consultants. So the, our main challenge, uh, comes in the second category where you find very hard [00:17:00] in case if you recommend any safety measure, you literally have to put.

Uh, you know, a hundred percent effort and, and convince all the stakeholders because a design contractors, it is not just one company. Again, they also would have multiple stakeholders. So you have to convince each and every stakeholder why you are recommending this control measure. And, uh, when it comes to business leaders, we speak with cost benefit analysis bill because, uh, of course, it, it doesn't work with all.

The safety control measures that we, uh, we cannot do a CBA for all the critical control measures. I mean all the control measures, but, uh, yes, at least the top post critical measures where it involves huge investment. Uh, because what happens is design contractors often see it as a, uh, additional cost.

They don't, uh, consider. Uh, these as a part of their cost, and that's how they also prepare their schedules. So what we do naturally is, uh, try to find out the top critical measures, which, which involves huge investments and, [00:18:00] uh, work, work out a cost benefit analysis and show it to the management. This is the control measure that we are suggesting, and this is the cost that you will be incurring.

Uh, you know, if you are purchasing this, uh, safety measure or if you're trying to implement the system. But if you are not going to implement the, uh, if, if you are going to implement it, then these are the benefits that you are going to achieve, be it a direct or indirect benefits. But then if you do, if you are not willing to go for implementing this, then these are the losses that you are going to experience.

Because we keep in, in, in India, I would say the, uh, the, uh, very aggressive, uh, you know, phase of safety in design is being happening. I should definitely acknowledge the fact that, you know, uh, 10 years back, there are a couple of incidents which happened in India where the property damage and the predict damage.

Together, uh, you know, contributed more than 36 billion, 36 million, 36 million USD. So if you are trying to implement this control measure, which hardly costs probably, uh, [00:19:00] less than, uh, 1 million, but then, uh, it, it is going to benefit you from not having such a kind of, uh, you know, huge damages. Uh, I think that that is the way we try to adopt when we try to convince the business leaders.

I

Alizabeth: like that. Yeah. I think it's interesting, Phil, listening to men talk about the conveyor. I think the example that I would bring to this too is we, we worked with a client who had a warehouse that they were moving into an existing historic building, ironically, and I think where safety and design really helped them.

And I liked having said this is one plan for the future, but also. Uh, there's still friction out there between engineers and architects, and so when you have people who put things on paper, the engineers are like, what is this? Why, you know, we have to get a crane to move, have X, Y, and z. I think having a safety professional in the mix also helps that dialogue.

It. Diffusal of the tension, but also said, okay, you know, we see this curve in the conveyor. If I [00:20:00] go to work for that, I have less than 12 inches to get my body in there. That's not gonna really work. Can we, can it be shifted a little bit? Can we change the shape of the curve, um, to get the conveyor in? How are we going to maintain this?

I think

Phil: I would assume that's because the engineers and the architects aren't the people who walk around every day. And who operate the equipment. And yes, you're trying to reach in there with a wrench and you could lose your hand and you something about that. Architects don't think about that. The safety personnel, if they're advocating for the user, they can then close that loop.

Alizabeth: And, and I think we're, we're a little fortunate. I mean there are a lot of data sets out there, Phil, 'cause you asked a question like how the cost benefit analysis is obviously a key thing. I think you know, the, here in the states we've got the, um, labor statistics that show us where, what type of accidents happen in a facility.

So we know like slip, trip and falls is the number one, you know, facil one of the top five. It's probably not number one. Um, one of the things that we think about is like, okay, well what are those options? What are [00:21:00] those opportunities as we're building? Can we use a different surface on the floor? Um, that's antistatic, that's anti, you know, spill?

Is this gonna be a petroleum area? There are different surfaces that have great success than that. And so bringing that into the design to think now versus, all right, we've built it, we're working it. Everyone's falling down on this grate or on this floor. I think it just really helps 'em think more holistically.

'cause is. Some of these options can be expensive, but I think what we can, what we generally do is a balance in that cost benefit is to talk about what the typically injury rate is for their industry type or facility type. And we look at how much of that can be controlled through engineering. And I think that speaks because quite honestly, worker comp claims are going up.

They do cost the company a great deal of money. Um. And we also want a facility that looks great, that is well thought out and taking five, you know, five minutes of review to talk about, okay, you've got this opening in the loading dock [00:22:00] and if it's raining and the prevalent wind is, you know, to into the building, how are we gonna stop the rain?

Could we make that awning a little bit bigger? Can we think about heat and how our product is coming into the facility and how we're gonna interact with that truck? All that can be talked about in the design phase.

Phil: How do you capture that? This goes even beyond that, right? Because what I'm thinking about is there are some ways that you could show that you care about customers.

There are different stakeholders in each part of the process who owns some part of the business, right? Whether I'm the operations, I'm the plant manager, whether I'm the finance person, whether I'm the HR person, whether I'm some executive, each person looks at it differently and it's easy for some people to be like, Ugh.

That's not my problem. Those guys were just stupid or they should watch where they were going. But when you go to places where things are designed so well that it takes care of the people and it takes care of the product and it takes care of their business, there's an extra level of care that I think that comes in.

Have you guys found places where people have been, you have [00:23:00] found surprise converts? People who were skeptical about the process and then bought into it in a way that can help other people who want to get people to buy in outside of their area of expertise or focus.

Arun: We come across various people, different set, different mindsets of people, uh, uh, with whom, you know, we play very hard.

Uh, you know, uh, it's, we, we take enough time to convince them, but. Uh, the thing is, um, as part of this execution, uh, we also come up with, like you said, the previous projects, the previous experience, and what happens, uh, there, there are some incidents which happens, uh, outside India or probably a same, uh, you know, stage of the project.

And we refer to those incidents and we try to motivate them. Um, a mo motivator as in it's, it's obviously not a typical motivation class, but then we, we tell them that these, this is. These are the past projects that we have worked with, and this particular solution, it, it works best and therefore, adopting it would help you, uh, achieving, [00:24:00] uh, greater benefit.

Because at end what happens is the, this, this whole process of safety design, it demonstrates the commitment of an employer. Towards an employee, towards the wellbeing of an employee. So, and then that's what matters. And, uh, like you said, like Elizabeth said, everyone remains in their own shoes and no one tries to come on a single page.

You know, safety consultant defense, uh, uh, why they are recommending a measure and design consultant defense, why that measure is not required. Some other stakeholder comes up and says that I have, this is the budget. Uh, this is my limit. So it's important to make them come out of their shoes and understand it holistically.

Uh, why this, uh, particular. Uh, you know, SID outcome, why this con, uh, measure is important. So, uh, I think that's what it is,

Meng: uh, really like, uh, the, the point of view from like a few United Service and, uh, and you're talking about what different stakeholders they have different, uh, [00:25:00] interests. Uh, that's exactly how we did in China.

Like here, like, uh, as we said. Uh, they, they, um, I said earlier like, the construction is not, um, uh, completion of construction is not end of a project development. It's al always about the future operation. So we need to find out the right decision maker and the right stakeholder who can support us with inference to the decision.

If in, if we engage or involve those end users, they lose pain in the future. They will. So like for maintenance, if you have, if you don't have like, um, proper access to that, you don't have proper platform to work on in the future, how can you work that safely and make sure that the, the, the plan runs well.

Right. If you don't. Do you have good job in the design thesis and you, you always have [00:26:00] problem in the future and they, it costs you much more in the future to, and you're never a hundred percent to solve those problems because that's from the root. It's the root cause. You cannot, you cannot skip of that.

So it's all about, say we do it early and we find the right end user to support us on that. The, the, but the problem is sometimes we, we always trying to discuss, as, as you said, the next structure engineers and the, uh, architecture and the, uh, constantly, uh, project management team. The, their purpose or their mission is about to complete this construction a lot like considering future.

So we need to talk about the. With this future end users, they are the, uh, right, uh, stakeholder we should get their support from so that in the future, and also [00:27:00] different stakeholders, they have different interests. Like they, they owner of the project, they, they think about schedule and the think about the cost.

Later in the, um, bonus section, I would, I will show a example of that. We, we actually. Saving a lot of money because of our, um, um, of safety, uh, in design or safety by design work, and that we also, uh, quite help them on the, uh, schedule part, but it could see a story later. We will share that in the phone section.

So I bike to any service.

Alizabeth: Well, I think you hit on something there really important and, and not everyone does it the same way, Phil. Um, I have a client I just met with today that I hope we listen later, but one of the things we were thinking about is really sitting down with our policy as we start to look at construction and set the tone of expectations of excellence.

And the culture. And then as they make these choices to [00:28:00] advertise the choices that they're making and who was involved not to sort of say, well, later you can go talk to Bob if you don't like the stairs. But more to say, Hey, we brought facilities in, we brought in, you know, the fire code folks, we brought the load master and we all looked at this together and, and so everyone has some shared view and shared voices, but also to take.

Ownership and pride that we took time to think about this as to how we want you to line up to this pieces of equipment. So we've marked it on the floor, or how we've angled the lights so you're knocking as much glare at your workstation. Like all those little things are. Our marketing moments almost within a company to show that our care for our employees and our operations started right on a piece of paper.

And that's when we began our safety culture. Um, and I think that's a powerful statement to say, um, to your employees. Um. As, as I think Ming said, there's always gonna be a few things that are gonna still need to be tweaked. Things that will change and, you know, things that we can't [00:29:00] even expect because the technology might change and the configuration.

But really starting from the ground, the point that we thought of this, not just from regulatory codes, um, not just from, you know, that we thought of the employee in that workplace. How our products are gonna move and the materials are gonna move with that employee to reduce injury and risk is a pretty powerful cultural statement to say.

And I think it's, it's a value that we find companies are, uh, espousing more and more and promoting more and more to their employees to sort of show this is, this is who we are, we. Put our money in the investment of our people and our future. Um, and I think, you know, that this is, this is one of the ways they're lifting that, that message up that is not just before you ever stepped in this facility, we were already thinking about you is, is an important message.

Phil: Well, I know we'd love to keep going a lot more in this, and I, and I think we can, I know you're gonna dig into that in some of the, and the bonus material, but this has been a really great introduction. To how safety and [00:30:00] design can do several things. What I've heard, we gotta help you reduce costs and we'll help you increase revenues, help you attract and retain clients and, sorry, attractively, retain employees and actually showcase your commitment to, to.

To the companies and, and the, the people and the mission that you're after. So, um, really interesting, a great way to to, to get started. Elizabeth, anything you wanna share before we switch to the next gears?

Alizabeth: No, I think, I think there was one thing that sort of jumped out at me to, to sort of bring forward one more time is the idea that, you know, not every country has.

Established pro programs or regulations in buildings and what we're talking about, like I know Cholo, for example, Orin's Group has gone to South Korea, um, to work with a client there in particular because it was something that they just didn't have the resources in country. Um, I think this is something that's portable across geographies.

Also, there are some code differences. Make no mistake, you know, the, the business building code in India is very different from the international [00:31:00] building code in the United States. But, um, that idea that this is something that tr that. Goes over geographies and it, the, the process of review and process of dialogue, I think is an important message.

And I think, you know, same with Ming. Ming hasn't just worked in China. He's worked in a number of different places. Um, solely from the standpoint of making sure that this. This process is put into place as I think Arun said earlier today. And, and so I think it's an important thing 'cause it's, it's not just specific to a country or a facility type.

It's geographically mobile. Mobile and, and, and interesting to clients as a way to protect their employees and reduce their, their costs later on.

Phil: And you know, I just had an epiphany when we see those things in the news about bad things happening around the world, for people who don't come home from work that day because of one thing or another.

This activity helped prevent those things from happening. These are the people who go brom against those avoidable mistakes [00:32:00] that we can learn by sharing information from around the world by getting people to the table. So it's a really exciting topic that starts when something, when something simple and that something might, someone might consider, they might be obligated to do.

Turns into something that actually can really make a difference, not only for the corporation, for the community, for the country, for somebody who's trying to grow and, and increase their standards of living. What an exciting topic. Thank you so much for sharing.

Arun: Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank you, bill. Thank all of you.

Phil: So for our audio listeners, I'm back with Elizabeth Arun and Meg have left us, but that was a really cool conversation. Yeah. And Elizabeth, I'd really love to talk with you a little bit about. What stuck out to you? Can you share some of the high points?

Alizabeth: I, I think it was really interesting to think of this as a process.

Um, and I, I think Arun hit that really hard of, of the idea that it's not just a nice to have, but being part of the stages of [00:33:00] design with some intentionality. Um, and it was interesting. They're using cost benefit analysis, I would say, in these states now that we use a lot more of our data to sort of go after some of these things.

And then I thought Ming, you know, one of the things that surprised me, not surprised me, that I thought was really interesting wasn't about the now and the the how and the why, but the future. Like when you talked about like we weren't just looking at this from how we're gonna operate right now, but knowing that they're going to expand and they're gonna get bigger.

So why not address that safety concern now? And I thought that was, it was an interesting thing to think about future and not just what ha what needs to be in this building to get this operation up and running and protect the employees, which. That was a really interesting view. They hadn't really talked about with some of my clients before.

Phil: Yeah, I think that was an interesting way for it to get started, and I think his comment about. How safety starts with unsafe conditions and unsafe behaviors sounded kind of obvious, but it just, it, it, um, it unveils reveals a bit of a nuance [00:34:00] in the topic, right. But I think that we really got into that it leads to there being somebody to advocate for the employee.

To advocate for people who aren't part of the design and construction process, to advocate for people who wanna take care of employees, um, from different parts of the organization. And because they know that there leads to better outcomes. And that's like a really, really interesting way to talk about it because you can, if you could talk about ROI, that you could drive revenues and profits, but then there's intangibles about the things that.

Employee marketing, employee retention, and even employees talking about how great this cus company is. And that's why we work here and that's why you should use our products or services.

Alizabeth: Yeah, yeah. There was, there was a warehouse that we worked with, um, that did, it was, it was really a precursor to safety design before we went into COVID.

Um, they're a beauty supply company and they wanted this to be a very high tech, you know, warehouse with all these things, thinking about their employees. They wanted to be beautiful space too. Um, so it wasn't [00:35:00] just safety, it was in that beauty because they wanted people to work in that building. They wanted people to be like, that's the building I wanna be in.

And it is, it wasn't just a lovely. Veneer. It had been, they had all these safety components and facility optimization, which I did think was interesting. We didn't hear more about that from them. I think we would've gotten there with, uh, Arun and talking about that stage three. But there is an element to this besides safety and design about making that building as efficient for sustainability purposes, right?

How are we going to collect our waste? How can we be efficient? How can we use less water? How do we use less electricity? All that's in that, this process too, besides just protecting the employees.

Phil: I think there's another, um, stakeholder in the conversation that we didn't mention and they said something about the design contractors and they said, the design contractors see this as across, but I was like, wait a minute.

Somebody's gonna bid the cost. If those guys don't put it into their budget, when things go wrong, somebody's gotta eat it. Somebody's gonna responsible for it. And often people are [00:36:00] fighting over it.

Alizabeth: Generally if they've been brought in, people already sort of know this is gonna be a little bit of a pricey proposition, um, and are prepared for that cost.

Our teams tend to work with the client and the architect. We have a. We have a model, we have those lessons learned. We're bringing, we already know we're gonna, it's gonna cost a little money, but we know it's gonna save us money. On the, the flip side, which Ming, I think talked a lot about,

Phil: I think it ties off to the part where she said, um, sorry.

When M said. We have to have the right decision makers around to support us, right? So people might have a certain aspect of what's going to work or how certain things are going to get done, and somebody hasn't worked through something all the way or hasn't thought through something or has done a movement study or a time study or whichever, right?

We would probably actually find, um, joy in finding a problem in the, in the early in the conception phase when somebody's laying something out like, aha, who solved this problem? Instead of it coming to bottle with later on.

Alizabeth: A great example [00:37:00] that we, we typically find, it's one of those things that we sort of laugh about.

'cause like, oh, are you using a forklift? How is it fueled? Oh, you're using batteries. They have to be charged. Where's that battery station going? How much you know, how big is that? Is it built into the wall? Great. Well, guess what? Batteries are caustic. And so now I need to have a spill kit in case someone should ram it into the wall and we've.

You know, electrolytes, um, uh, flowing and so I, I need a place to put that skill kit and we gotta make sure that there's an emergency eye wash and emergency shower. Those are those little things that we know there's a cause and effect. If I choose this type of equipment, I'm gonna need, you know, an emergency eye wash or shower within a hundred feet or 10 seconds.

Um, but now that they get lost in the design, is there even a waterline in that part of the building? Those are some of those things where I think is exciting. We go, ha ha, we have avoided a common finding that we get all the time.

Phil: Especially if it's something that, like you said, something about if it wasn't in the code, because code is different in different parts of the world.

Yeah. It may not be in the code, but it might be a very smart thing to do [00:38:00] where somebody goes, why'd you do that? Right. Yeah. Especially if you know. Water is a challenge in a certain part of the world, or clean water or access to water or power. You gotta do something differently. If you think power, I might be intermittent, for example.

Yeah. So it, it seems like there are, there are opportunities for more creative thinking and more, uh, cross pollination of, of insights that can lead to better outcomes and unexpected surprises from thinking about safety.

Alizabeth: Yeah, just putting it in earlier in the process. So it's not a reactive pro program, but it was where you started and we talked about that cultural item.

I think a little bit there, and I do think, again, it's a foundational change for some companies Before it's like, go build me an x. I built you an X and then you get into the air and everyone's struggling to make things fit and to get into that conveyor belt and that small space. Um, I think having those discussions early on prevents that hardship

Phil: having been on the receiving end of that.

Right. When you're working on a, on a [00:39:00] ship or, or a manufacturing or a manufacturing plant where you're, where you run outta space or seen as a, as an inspector where somebody says, we don't have enough space to put this thing in here. Just kind of. Um. The thought of considering how that person's gonna be successful is a really important thing.

And I just thought it was a great point to end.

Alizabeth: Uh, anytime, Phil, we have such good talks every time. For our listeners, tune back in next week and we'll be releasing a bonus episode on this topic with Meng, as he alluded to earlier. We'll be talking more about, um, the innovative best practices in CT design.

So I hope you'll come back

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